Comments on: Dave Concepcion in . . . The Nagging Question http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/ Voice of the Mathematically Eliminated Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:11:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Rounding Thirty 3rd http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5647 Rounding Thirty 3rd Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:01:40 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5647 <b><a></a>80.</b>  The Orioles had some great defense up the middle as well - for the eight year span 1969-1976, Davey Johnson/Bobby Grich (2B), Mark Belanger (SS), and Paul Blair (CF) won 20 of a possible 24 gold gloves. Toss in either Etch or Elrod catching and you have a formidable match-up to that Big Red Machine team. (Note: From 1974-1977, Bench-Morgan-Concepcion-Geronimo swept all 16 possible Gold Gloves). 80.  The Orioles had some great defense up the middle as well – for the eight year span 1969-1976, Davey Johnson/Bobby Grich (2B), Mark Belanger (SS), and Paul Blair (CF) won 20 of a possible 24 gold gloves. Toss in either Etch or Elrod catching and you have a formidable match-up to that Big Red Machine team.

(Note: From 1974-1977, Bench-Morgan-Concepcion-Geronimo swept all 16 possible Gold Gloves).

]]> By: JL25and3 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5646 JL25and3 Mon, 21 Apr 2008 15:03:55 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5646 <b><a></a>79.</b>  Watching the Yankees play the Orioles over the weekend, this thought struck me: if Adam Jones can become even a lousy major-league hitter, better than replacement but below average, he could be Cesar Geronimo. And immediately this thread came to mind, because here's a category where the Big REd Machine has to win hands down: everyday defensive strength up the middle. I haven't done a lick of research, but I expect that Bench, Morgan, Concepcion and Geronimo will be extremely tough to beat. 79.  Watching the Yankees play the Orioles over the weekend, this thought struck me: if Adam Jones can become even a lousy major-league hitter, better than replacement but below average, he could be Cesar Geronimo.

And immediately this thread came to mind, because here’s a category where the Big REd Machine has to win hands down: everyday defensive strength up the middle. I haven’t done a lick of research, but I expect that Bench, Morgan, Concepcion and Geronimo will be extremely tough to beat.

]]> By: Suffering Bruin http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5645 Suffering Bruin Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:20:31 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5645 <b><a></a>78.</b>  If they haven't been mentioned already, my nominees are Jackie Robinson and Pee Wee Reese. 78.  If they haven’t been mentioned already, my nominees are Jackie Robinson and Pee Wee Reese.

]]> By: Josh Wilker http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5644 Josh Wilker Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:51:11 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5644 <b><a></a>77.</b>  Michael and Clark also have the distinction of being something of a negative image of Tinker and Evers. In a historical light, Tinker and Evers (see <a href="#22" rel="nofollow">22</a> for the winning percentage of the Cubs during their reign) personify the small island of Cubs dominance in an otherwise vast sea of Cubs falure. Michael and Clarke, on the other hand, presided over the usually dominant Yankees' glummest, most irrelevant years. As far as their defense, all I can offer is that the Strat-O-Matic 1970s online game has both of them listed as 3s with fairly low e-ratings. Not bad, but perhaps not good enough to save them from being dubbed, all things considered (limp offensive skills, cruddy team, longevity), the worst double play combo of all time. 77.  Michael and Clark also have the distinction of being something of a negative image of Tinker and Evers. In a historical light, Tinker and Evers (see 22 for the winning percentage of the Cubs during their reign) personify the small island of Cubs dominance in an otherwise vast sea of Cubs falure. Michael and Clarke, on the other hand, presided over the usually dominant Yankees’ glummest, most irrelevant years.

As far as their defense, all I can offer is that the Strat-O-Matic 1970s online game has both of them listed as 3s with fairly low e-ratings. Not bad, but perhaps not good enough to save them from being dubbed, all things considered (limp offensive skills, cruddy team, longevity), the worst double play combo of all time.

]]> By: Jeb http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5643 Jeb Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:02:05 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5643 <b><a></a>76.</b>  Gene Michael had a lifetime OPS+ of 67, which is exactly 10 points less than Raffy Ramirez. Horace Clarke had a lifetime OPS+ of 83, which is less than Hubbard's 85. DING DING DING we obviously have a new champ until someone can find a starting combo that was worse for 5 or more years. Also, I don't know if Gene and Horace played good defense, but Hub and Raffy did (at least in 1982 they turned the most DPs in the NL). 76.  Gene Michael had a lifetime OPS+ of 67, which is exactly 10 points less than Raffy Ramirez. Horace Clarke had a lifetime OPS+ of 83, which is less than Hubbard’s 85.

DING DING DING we obviously have a new champ until someone can find a starting combo that was worse for 5 or more years. Also, I don’t know if Gene and Horace played good defense, but Hub and Raffy did (at least in 1982 they turned the most DPs in the NL).

]]> By: sly jones http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5642 sly jones Sun, 13 Apr 2008 04:25:00 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5642 <b><a></a>75.</b>  Hey, how 'bout the 1969-1973 Yankees? Horace Clarke and Gene Michael. That was a little before my time, but how good were they? I know Clarke had a little speed, but I don't remember ever hearing he or Stick spoken of very highly. 75.  Hey, how ’bout the 1969-1973 Yankees?
Horace Clarke and Gene Michael.
That was a little before my time, but how good were they?

I know Clarke had a little speed, but I don’t remember ever hearing he or Stick spoken of very highly.

]]> By: Jeb http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5641 Jeb Sun, 13 Apr 2008 01:33:29 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5641 <b><a></a>74.</b>  yeah, but who's worse than them for 5 years offensively? 74.  yeah, but who’s worse than them for 5 years offensively?

]]> By: Eric Enders http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5640 Eric Enders Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:56:46 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5640 <b><a></a>73.</b>  <a href="#72" rel="nofollow">72</a> That's one year. The year that's listed next to each name. Obviously, if a combo was bad enough, they wouldn't stick around long enough to form a long-term pairing. I don't think Hubbard and Ramirez are a realistic candidate. Hubbard was an absolutely phenomenal defensive second baseman. The reason they played together for that long is because it was believed their defense justified their lack of offense. Maybe it did and maybe it didn't, but I don't think they can be claimed to be the worst 73.  72 That’s one year. The year that’s listed next to each name. Obviously, if a combo was bad enough, they wouldn’t stick around long enough to form a long-term pairing.

I don’t think Hubbard and Ramirez are a realistic candidate. Hubbard was an absolutely phenomenal defensive second baseman. The reason they played together for that long is because it was believed their defense justified their lack of offense. Maybe it did and maybe it didn’t, but I don’t think they can be claimed to be the worst

]]> By: Jeb http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5639 Jeb Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:47:12 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5639 <b><a></a>72.</b>  <a href="#71" rel="nofollow">71</a> I'm not trying to be contrary, but are these players that played for 5 years or more or are we talking about 1-2 years? Any team can have a bad combo for a year, but for 5 or more is just unacceptable, which is what the Braves did. Also, Belanger and Kiko were both shortstops, Rich Dauer was the 2nd baseman on that team and he had a 91 OPS+ in 1980. The O's won 98 games that year thanks mostly to their solid pitching and good years from Bumbry, Singleton and Murray. 72.  71 I’m not trying to be contrary, but are these players that played for 5 years or more or are we talking about 1-2 years? Any team can have a bad combo for a year, but for 5 or more is just unacceptable, which is what the Braves did.

Also, Belanger and Kiko were both shortstops, Rich Dauer was the 2nd baseman on that team and he had a 91 OPS+ in 1980. The O’s won 98 games that year thanks mostly to their solid pitching and good years from Bumbry, Singleton and Murray.

]]> By: Eric Enders http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5638 Eric Enders Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:46:15 +0000 http://cardboardgods.net/2008/04/10/dave-concepcion-in-the-nagging-question/#comment-5638 <b><a></a>71.</b>  Using Baseball-Reference, I was able to determine that there have been 11 teams in baseball history which featured at least two full-time middle infielders each with an OPS+ worse than 60. They are: 1970 NL Montreal Expos 3 Bobby Wine / Gary Sutherland / Marv Staehle 1980 AL Baltimore Orioles 2 Mark Belanger / Kiko Garcia 1970 NL Philadelphia Phillies 2 Larry Bowa / Denny Doyle 1970 NL St. Louis Cardinals 2 Dal Maxvill / Julian Javier 1965 NL San Francisco Giants 2 Hal Lanier / Dick Schofield 1953 NL Cincinnati Reds 2 Roy McMillan / Rocky Bridges 1949 NL Pittsburgh Pirates 2 Stan Rojek / Monty Basgall 1944 AL Chicago White Sox 2 Roy Schalk / Skeeter Webb 1937 NL Philadelphia Phillies 2 George Scharein / Del Young 1934 AL St. Louis Browns 2 Ski Melillo / Alan Strange 1927 AL St. Louis Browns 2 Wally Gerber / Ski Melillo The worst combo may be on this list, but it also may not, as a lot of the more recent players (Maxvill, Lanier, McMillan, Belanger, Javier, etc.) had spectacular defensive reputations. I think if you're going to be a contender for worst DP combo of all time, it has to start with bad defense. 71.  Using Baseball-Reference, I was able to determine that there have been 11 teams in baseball history which featured at least two full-time middle infielders each with an OPS+ worse than 60. They are:

1970 NL Montreal Expos 3 Bobby Wine / Gary Sutherland / Marv Staehle
1980 AL Baltimore Orioles 2 Mark Belanger / Kiko Garcia
1970 NL Philadelphia Phillies 2 Larry Bowa / Denny Doyle
1970 NL St. Louis Cardinals 2 Dal Maxvill / Julian Javier
1965 NL San Francisco Giants 2 Hal Lanier / Dick Schofield
1953 NL Cincinnati Reds 2 Roy McMillan / Rocky Bridges
1949 NL Pittsburgh Pirates 2 Stan Rojek / Monty Basgall
1944 AL Chicago White Sox 2 Roy Schalk / Skeeter Webb
1937 NL Philadelphia Phillies 2 George Scharein / Del Young
1934 AL St. Louis Browns 2 Ski Melillo / Alan Strange
1927 AL St. Louis Browns 2 Wally Gerber / Ski Melillo

The worst combo may be on this list, but it also may not, as a lot of the more recent players (Maxvill, Lanier, McMillan, Belanger, Javier, etc.) had spectacular defensive reputations. I think if you’re going to be a contender for worst DP combo of all time, it has to start with bad defense.

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